"Culture," Bob Hope once said, "is the ability to describe Jane Russell without moving your hands." Most of the descriptions of the actress, who died on Monday, have focused on her looks -- full-figured brunette with legs a mile long, a Hollywood sex symbol who could give Marilyn Monroe a run for her money. But she was famous as well for playing smart-talking, wise-cracking women with talent and indomitable will.
In this interview the film star talks about her religious life, for which she also became well-known, and the World Adoption International Fund, one of her major ventures.
Wednesday, March 02, 2011
Divine Dispensation
[T]here isn't now, hasn't been in the past, nor ever will be in the future anyone with a character so unusual that he has been educated to virtue in spite of the contrary education he received from the mob--I mean, a human character; the divine, as the saying goes, is an exception to the rule. You should realize that if anyone is saved and becomes what he ought to be under our present constitutions, he has been saved--you may rightly say--by a divine dispensation.
Plato, Republic Book VI, 492e (Grube-Reeve translation).
Tuesday, March 01, 2011
Notes for Noting, Links for Thinking
* Thomas Osborne, MacIntyre, Thomism, and the Contemporary Common Good (PDF)
* Three young atheists answer the question, "Can atheists talk about theology?" I find the disparity between the headline, "Skeptics do not require theological knowledge to judge faith claims," and the answers very interesting: what all three atheists actually say is that you do need theological knowledge 'to judge faith claims' in order to provide reasonable criticisms, but that you don't need to accept the theology as a believer in order to do so. And clearly this, and not the headline, is the reasonable line for an atheist to take. (All three answers are, I think, quite sensible.)
ADDED LATER: See James Chastek's excellent discussion of the answers.
* Rev. Barry Lynn argues that churches should be discriminated against when it comes to historic site maintenance funding. Of course, he doesn't put it that way. The fact of the matter is, once funding is being given out for historic site maintenance anyway, deliberately refusing to maintain church buildings that otherwise meet the criteria is not really feasible, short of something analogous to a Blaine amendment.
* People outside of Texas generally don't have a clear idea at just how messed-up the Texas State Board of Education is; it's sometimes presented in the media as if it were a partisan issue, with conservatives on the TSBoE trying to fix liberal skew, or else as representing conservative insanity generally. This is certainly not right; very few people in Texas, right or left, seem very happy with the TSBoE at present, which is meddlesome, arbitrary, pompous, and expensive for Texans (since it controls textbook standards, and its arbitrary manipulations of them generally make textbooks much more expensive for Texas schools). It's a good sign of the dysfunctionality of partisan politics, since most people recognize the incompetence of the TSBoE, but nobody does anything about it because conservatives are afraid that the liberals will be even worse and the liberals are afraid that if they don't seize and use the same power, the conservatives will go even farther. The conservatives are in control right now, and are awful, but the liberals were just as bad when they were in power. I find it's very difficult for people outside Texas to understand this; I once lost my temper a bit over being lectured on the politics of the situation by someone in Pennsylvania. In any case, the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, a conservative think-tank concerned with education, has recently given Texas educational standards a failing grade (also here) and made some sharp criticisms of the new standards, such as calling it "a confusing, unteachable hodgepodge," which is exactly right. It's worth keeping in mind, incidentally, that TSBoE has only an indirect power over Texas education, by setting textbook standards and curriculum requirements; it can (and does) make things harder for good teachers, but there are many excellent Texas teachers making do.
Education is no more immune than any field to party politics; but when this extends beyond institutional administration and the like, into the actual content of the curriculum, education is no longer a means for encouraging a free citizenry, but is more and more a means for propagandizing the masses. And this perversion of education from being the material of freedom to being the advertisement of a political view is just not acceptable, regardless of who does it.
* Anyway, you can read the Institute's report on history standards for each state at its website. Just judging from the report, South Carolina seems to have the right idea.
* A group in San Francisco is gathering signatures to put a ban of infant circumcision on the ballot in the name of civil rights. Jews are not amused, since it would eliminate the Jewish form of ritual circumcision, brit milah, and while infant circumcision of some form is not a strictly required practice for Muslims and Christians, there are plenty of Muslims and Christians who are somewhat annoyed at the idea of a ban as well.
I find the argument for it interesting, since it's the claim that nobody has the right to make a decision about anyone else's body; which, if applied consistently, would also eliminate parents making decisions with regard to medical and cosmetic surgeries for their children. The proposed ban actually has a medical exception, but even this limited allowance is not consistent with any of the philosophical arguments I've seen given in support of the ban. One could just as easily start in the opposite direction: obviously arbitrary genital cutting is unreasonable, but given that it can be done for reasons of physical health, what other reasons would make reasonable exemptions in light of the goals of civil society? And then, given that nobody thinks that religious freedoms should admit of no protection at all, it's difficult to argue that religious reasons could not ground at least some such exemptions. Not, of course, that people won't try; the difficulty, however, which most people don't guard against sufficiently, is making such an argument without begging the question.
* A nice discussion by Joseph Rickaby of the traditional Catholic account of equivocation and lying.
* Bearing has a very nice post on reading Francis de Sales's Introduction to a Devout Life.
ADDED LATER
* The most awesome of all snarky anti-TSA comments threads.
* Three young atheists answer the question, "Can atheists talk about theology?" I find the disparity between the headline, "Skeptics do not require theological knowledge to judge faith claims," and the answers very interesting: what all three atheists actually say is that you do need theological knowledge 'to judge faith claims' in order to provide reasonable criticisms, but that you don't need to accept the theology as a believer in order to do so. And clearly this, and not the headline, is the reasonable line for an atheist to take. (All three answers are, I think, quite sensible.)
ADDED LATER: See James Chastek's excellent discussion of the answers.
* Rev. Barry Lynn argues that churches should be discriminated against when it comes to historic site maintenance funding. Of course, he doesn't put it that way. The fact of the matter is, once funding is being given out for historic site maintenance anyway, deliberately refusing to maintain church buildings that otherwise meet the criteria is not really feasible, short of something analogous to a Blaine amendment.
* People outside of Texas generally don't have a clear idea at just how messed-up the Texas State Board of Education is; it's sometimes presented in the media as if it were a partisan issue, with conservatives on the TSBoE trying to fix liberal skew, or else as representing conservative insanity generally. This is certainly not right; very few people in Texas, right or left, seem very happy with the TSBoE at present, which is meddlesome, arbitrary, pompous, and expensive for Texans (since it controls textbook standards, and its arbitrary manipulations of them generally make textbooks much more expensive for Texas schools). It's a good sign of the dysfunctionality of partisan politics, since most people recognize the incompetence of the TSBoE, but nobody does anything about it because conservatives are afraid that the liberals will be even worse and the liberals are afraid that if they don't seize and use the same power, the conservatives will go even farther. The conservatives are in control right now, and are awful, but the liberals were just as bad when they were in power. I find it's very difficult for people outside Texas to understand this; I once lost my temper a bit over being lectured on the politics of the situation by someone in Pennsylvania. In any case, the Thomas B. Fordham Institute, a conservative think-tank concerned with education, has recently given Texas educational standards a failing grade (also here) and made some sharp criticisms of the new standards, such as calling it "a confusing, unteachable hodgepodge," which is exactly right. It's worth keeping in mind, incidentally, that TSBoE has only an indirect power over Texas education, by setting textbook standards and curriculum requirements; it can (and does) make things harder for good teachers, but there are many excellent Texas teachers making do.
Education is no more immune than any field to party politics; but when this extends beyond institutional administration and the like, into the actual content of the curriculum, education is no longer a means for encouraging a free citizenry, but is more and more a means for propagandizing the masses. And this perversion of education from being the material of freedom to being the advertisement of a political view is just not acceptable, regardless of who does it.
* Anyway, you can read the Institute's report on history standards for each state at its website. Just judging from the report, South Carolina seems to have the right idea.
* A group in San Francisco is gathering signatures to put a ban of infant circumcision on the ballot in the name of civil rights. Jews are not amused, since it would eliminate the Jewish form of ritual circumcision, brit milah, and while infant circumcision of some form is not a strictly required practice for Muslims and Christians, there are plenty of Muslims and Christians who are somewhat annoyed at the idea of a ban as well.
I find the argument for it interesting, since it's the claim that nobody has the right to make a decision about anyone else's body; which, if applied consistently, would also eliminate parents making decisions with regard to medical and cosmetic surgeries for their children. The proposed ban actually has a medical exception, but even this limited allowance is not consistent with any of the philosophical arguments I've seen given in support of the ban. One could just as easily start in the opposite direction: obviously arbitrary genital cutting is unreasonable, but given that it can be done for reasons of physical health, what other reasons would make reasonable exemptions in light of the goals of civil society? And then, given that nobody thinks that religious freedoms should admit of no protection at all, it's difficult to argue that religious reasons could not ground at least some such exemptions. Not, of course, that people won't try; the difficulty, however, which most people don't guard against sufficiently, is making such an argument without begging the question.
* A nice discussion by Joseph Rickaby of the traditional Catholic account of equivocation and lying.
* Bearing has a very nice post on reading Francis de Sales's Introduction to a Devout Life.
ADDED LATER
* The most awesome of all snarky anti-TSA comments threads.
Monday, February 28, 2011
The Seed of Immortal Truths
This passage makes more clear what Rosmini means by 'system of truth' in the passage quoted in the previous post.
Antonio Rosmini, Introduction to Philosophy, Volume I: About the Author's Studies. Rosmini House (Durham 2004) p. 20.
The characteristic of truth is to be intimately related with a supreme unity out of which it evolves into plurality. Each unit of this plurality also gives rise to a further plurality of more limited truths, which in turn produce an abundant crop of truths that germinate further rich crops. So the seed of immortal truths, which continues to extend ever more widely, is classifed into species and genera and develops into various branches of knowledge, art forms and intellectual disciplines. The characteristic of truth, as I have already mentioned, is to flow into other truths, in which it is renewed and continually increases in number, without losing its primal unity and simplicity. It is so incorporeal and divine that, as I said, it finds no satisfactory likeness or representation anywhere amongst material, sensible beings.
Antonio Rosmini, Introduction to Philosophy, Volume I: About the Author's Studies. Rosmini House (Durham 2004) p. 20.
Philosopher and Sophist
What is the system of truth but a kind of majestic statue or noble image of God himself, of much greater worth than anything produced by human hands. It is, after all, impressed upon immortal souls by the living image of eternal wisdom. The person who devotes himself to such a great work is called a philsoopher and the subject he pursues is called philosophy. How, then, can such a name be profaned and abused by appying it to those who, although they too use their intellects, do so in such a shoddy way that their sole achievement is the demolition and disfigurement of the philosopher's work? Their sophistry obscures the light of truth revealed by true philosophy and daubs with falsehood the respectable limbs of the body of wisdom which the philosopher depicts in his writings.
Antonio Rosmini, Introduction to Philosophy, Volume I: About the Author's Studies. Rosmini House (Durham: 2004) pp. 94-95
Sunday, February 27, 2011
Constitutional Puzzlement
Presidential administrations do a great many things that mystify me, but reading Eric Holder's statement on the President's recent decision with regard to DOMA, I am more mystified than usual. It is entirely reasonable for a President who thinks a law unconstitutional to refuse to defend it in court; that is the only way to fulfill the obligation of his oath. What I don't understand is how a President, once he has made this decision, can also continue to enforce the law, since an unconstitutional law, being void, shouldn't fall under the Constitutional requirement to execute the Laws faithfully -- that means executing the Constitution faithfully above all else, but if a law is unconstitutional, the Constitution can't be faithfully enforced as long as the unconstitutional law is also enforced. How does one have one's cake and eat it, too? What conceivable argument can be given for the claim that one can constitutionally enforce what one regards as unconstitutional?
On Chrysostom on Lying
Besides Cassian, John Chrysostom is the Church Father who is most often appealed to as the representative of a 'pious lie' tradition. When we look at Chrysostom, however, we find many of the same ambiguities present in Cassian, and perhaps more.
Chrysostom's On the Priesthood opens with an autobiographical story of Chrysostom's relationship with one of his early friends. This friend was more religious than Chrysostom himself, for young John was tangled with the desires of the world, but their friendship held, and as John became more serious and mature, the friend, whose name was Basil, began to spend much more time with John, and proposed that they together share a house, priests together, with the object of growing in the spiritual life.
John still had a mother, however, and his mother, hearing of the plan, took him aside. Weeping profusely, she reminded him that she no longer had his father to lean on, and begged him to remain with her for as long as she lived, and not leave her alone to the trials of widowhood. John communicated this to Basil, but Basil insisted that they still should join together and form a religious community. At this time they both heard word that they were likely to be advanced to the episcopate. John was very alarmed at this rumor, neither feeling ready nor regarding himself as worthy of the honor. Basil came to him and said that whatever John decided, Basil would follow him in the endeavor. John, however, realized that he could not deprive the Church of a bishop of Basil's qualities, said that they should postpone the decision, in such terms as to encourage Basil to think that they would both accept the episcopacy. When the person came to raise them the episcopate, John hid himself, and Basil reluctantly accepted the honor, particularly since some bystanders made him think that John had already accepted it. Basil was distraught when he learned the truth, but John rejoiced at his friend's honor, praising God that his plan had worked. Basil, seeing this, realized that this had been John's plan all along, and was even more grieved.
Basil remonstrated with John, saying that he would now have the shame of having to hide the fact that he had been tricked. Many people accused John of vainglory and arrogance because he hid from receiving episcopal honors, but Basil could not respond to the accusation, because everyone thought he was in on it: he could never get anyone to believe that he and John, such close friends, did not know all the details of each other's schemes, and, that he could not bear to suggest that their friendship had been so weak that John kept Basil from knowing his intent. John took advantage of the openness of their friendship. Nonetheless, he did not demand an apology or that John should justify his deception, but only that John should tell him how he could possibly answer the accusations against John.
John, however, was unphased, and insisted that he could justify himself on all counts. What wrong had John actually done? He had deceived Basil, but for Basil's own good and the good of others. The evil of deception is not absolute; it depends on the intentions of those who practice it. Generals are esteemed for their capacity to deceive, and in war and peace alike deceptions have been the saving of many lives.
Basil dismissed this, pointing out that he was not an enemy.
Ah, replied John, but deception does not always only benefit the deceiver. Physicians sometimes must trick their patients to get them to take their medicine. Likewise, St. Paul attracted the attention of Jews by circumcising Timothy, even though neither were under the law. Such deception is not even really accurately called deception, because it is more like a prudent management of the situation, a form of cleverness. That man is a deceiver who makes unjust use of such practices; the one who makes salutary use of them is in a different category altogether. The benefits Basil received were those of St. Peter, whom Christ told to show his love not by fasts, vigils, and the like, but by tending Christ's sheep.
But what of John, then, who claims to love Christ, the proper expression of which is tending His sheep, but who fled the honor? That was due to John's inability to fulfill the function. John then argues that Basil, on the other hand, was ready and suitable for fulfilling the office. This, of course, serves as the framework for the rest of the discussion, which is about the high standards that should be expected of those admitted to the priesthood, and especially to the episcopacy.
This, then, is one of the major texts people sometimes appeal to in order to make a place for lying in piety. But it is clear enough that this text will only get one so far. We have no reason to think that John lied outright to Basil; we don't have a precise account of what he said, but we don't have any reason to think it was a lie. When Basil accuses him of deceit, what he accuses him of is not saying false things but withholding information, knowing that Basil would assume that John had told him everything. And it is this that John is defending, and even goes so far as to say is not really deceit at all. And there is nothing in this that is directly contrary to the tradition that it is always wrong to lie; what Chrysostom describes is not clearly a lie at all. Indeed, he pretty much says this himself.
the second passage in Chrysostom that is sometimes adduced on this subject is Chrysostom's influential discussion of the confrontation between Peter and Paul, as described by Paul in the epistle to the Galatians. Chrysostom, like a number of Fathers, had difficulty thinking of Peter as quite so obtuse about God's plan as he might seem on bare literal reading, particularly given that he had had it directly from God, and had difficulty reconciling Paul's behavior in this situation with his circumcision of Timothy, so Chrysostom (and others) suggested that there were indications in the text that it was in fact an elaborate set-up by Peter and Paul (a simulated confrontation). Peter had begun to accept Gentile ways as a way of welcoming the Gentiles, but he was sharply criticized for this by Jewish Christians, who were extremely upset by it. Thus, said Chrysostom (I will be giving only a rough summary), Peter reverted to Jewish Christian ways, expecting Paul to jump in and raise a ruckus. This Paul did, seeing exactly what Peter was about, and sharply and publically criticized Peter; Peter in turn meekly accepted the rebuke as an example to the Jewish Christians. Thus Peter and Paul were able to make the point without alienating the Jewish Christians from Peter: the new situation could be presented to them as a way to keep peace with the community at large and not as Peter's own willful choice, while, at the same time, Peter's acceptance of the rebuke provided an example for the Church at large to follow and gave a certain amount of authority to Paul. The circumcision of Timothy was a similar ruse on the part of Paul, a concession unnecessary in itself but valuable for not alienating Jewish believers and the Jewish community at large.
Now it is notable that this elaborate management of the situation involves no outright falsehood, either: nothing either Peter or Paul says is false, and the only thing that can remotely be called dissimulation is the fact that Peter accedes to the demands of the Jewish Christians not because he agrees with them but because he knows that it will give Paul an opportunity to make an important point. It's an elaborate teaching exercise. Some Fathers, most notably Augustine, were uncomfortable with the whole notion of the ruse, and Augustine and Jerome had one of their first fights over it, Jerome insisting that the ruse interpretation was the more pious and reasonable interpretation and Augustine insisting that it was more pious and reasonable just to say that Peter made a mistake and Paul corrected him. But however uncomfortable Augustine may have been with it, the ruse, should one choose to accept that interpretation, doesn't fall under any later definition of lying, or even Augustine's own definition of lying. The worry is not that Peter and Paul lied in any proper sense but that deception, even with good intention, is dangerous business for the soul, and the difference between the Fathers on this point is simply over whether it was too dangerous.
We find, then, much the situation with Chrysostom that we found with Cassian: we must avoid naive reading because the 'lying' involved in these cases doesn't map onto post-Augustinian accounts of lying in a straightforward way. To the extent that 'lies' are talked about at all in this context, the Fathers are usually using the term loosely, and even then they often show recognition of the complexities of this loose usage, as with Chrysostom's claim that his deception of Basil shouldn't even really be called a deception. There are still ambiguities about how far Chrysostom thinks one can go, but it's important to note that they are ambiguities: nothing Chrysostom says is outright inconsistent with the post-Augustinian tradition that lying is always wrong, and trying to make them inconsistent requires a considerable amount of eisegesis.
Chrysostom's On the Priesthood opens with an autobiographical story of Chrysostom's relationship with one of his early friends. This friend was more religious than Chrysostom himself, for young John was tangled with the desires of the world, but their friendship held, and as John became more serious and mature, the friend, whose name was Basil, began to spend much more time with John, and proposed that they together share a house, priests together, with the object of growing in the spiritual life.
John still had a mother, however, and his mother, hearing of the plan, took him aside. Weeping profusely, she reminded him that she no longer had his father to lean on, and begged him to remain with her for as long as she lived, and not leave her alone to the trials of widowhood. John communicated this to Basil, but Basil insisted that they still should join together and form a religious community. At this time they both heard word that they were likely to be advanced to the episcopate. John was very alarmed at this rumor, neither feeling ready nor regarding himself as worthy of the honor. Basil came to him and said that whatever John decided, Basil would follow him in the endeavor. John, however, realized that he could not deprive the Church of a bishop of Basil's qualities, said that they should postpone the decision, in such terms as to encourage Basil to think that they would both accept the episcopacy. When the person came to raise them the episcopate, John hid himself, and Basil reluctantly accepted the honor, particularly since some bystanders made him think that John had already accepted it. Basil was distraught when he learned the truth, but John rejoiced at his friend's honor, praising God that his plan had worked. Basil, seeing this, realized that this had been John's plan all along, and was even more grieved.
Basil remonstrated with John, saying that he would now have the shame of having to hide the fact that he had been tricked. Many people accused John of vainglory and arrogance because he hid from receiving episcopal honors, but Basil could not respond to the accusation, because everyone thought he was in on it: he could never get anyone to believe that he and John, such close friends, did not know all the details of each other's schemes, and, that he could not bear to suggest that their friendship had been so weak that John kept Basil from knowing his intent. John took advantage of the openness of their friendship. Nonetheless, he did not demand an apology or that John should justify his deception, but only that John should tell him how he could possibly answer the accusations against John.
John, however, was unphased, and insisted that he could justify himself on all counts. What wrong had John actually done? He had deceived Basil, but for Basil's own good and the good of others. The evil of deception is not absolute; it depends on the intentions of those who practice it. Generals are esteemed for their capacity to deceive, and in war and peace alike deceptions have been the saving of many lives.
Basil dismissed this, pointing out that he was not an enemy.
Ah, replied John, but deception does not always only benefit the deceiver. Physicians sometimes must trick their patients to get them to take their medicine. Likewise, St. Paul attracted the attention of Jews by circumcising Timothy, even though neither were under the law. Such deception is not even really accurately called deception, because it is more like a prudent management of the situation, a form of cleverness. That man is a deceiver who makes unjust use of such practices; the one who makes salutary use of them is in a different category altogether. The benefits Basil received were those of St. Peter, whom Christ told to show his love not by fasts, vigils, and the like, but by tending Christ's sheep.
But what of John, then, who claims to love Christ, the proper expression of which is tending His sheep, but who fled the honor? That was due to John's inability to fulfill the function. John then argues that Basil, on the other hand, was ready and suitable for fulfilling the office. This, of course, serves as the framework for the rest of the discussion, which is about the high standards that should be expected of those admitted to the priesthood, and especially to the episcopacy.
This, then, is one of the major texts people sometimes appeal to in order to make a place for lying in piety. But it is clear enough that this text will only get one so far. We have no reason to think that John lied outright to Basil; we don't have a precise account of what he said, but we don't have any reason to think it was a lie. When Basil accuses him of deceit, what he accuses him of is not saying false things but withholding information, knowing that Basil would assume that John had told him everything. And it is this that John is defending, and even goes so far as to say is not really deceit at all. And there is nothing in this that is directly contrary to the tradition that it is always wrong to lie; what Chrysostom describes is not clearly a lie at all. Indeed, he pretty much says this himself.
the second passage in Chrysostom that is sometimes adduced on this subject is Chrysostom's influential discussion of the confrontation between Peter and Paul, as described by Paul in the epistle to the Galatians. Chrysostom, like a number of Fathers, had difficulty thinking of Peter as quite so obtuse about God's plan as he might seem on bare literal reading, particularly given that he had had it directly from God, and had difficulty reconciling Paul's behavior in this situation with his circumcision of Timothy, so Chrysostom (and others) suggested that there were indications in the text that it was in fact an elaborate set-up by Peter and Paul (a simulated confrontation). Peter had begun to accept Gentile ways as a way of welcoming the Gentiles, but he was sharply criticized for this by Jewish Christians, who were extremely upset by it. Thus, said Chrysostom (I will be giving only a rough summary), Peter reverted to Jewish Christian ways, expecting Paul to jump in and raise a ruckus. This Paul did, seeing exactly what Peter was about, and sharply and publically criticized Peter; Peter in turn meekly accepted the rebuke as an example to the Jewish Christians. Thus Peter and Paul were able to make the point without alienating the Jewish Christians from Peter: the new situation could be presented to them as a way to keep peace with the community at large and not as Peter's own willful choice, while, at the same time, Peter's acceptance of the rebuke provided an example for the Church at large to follow and gave a certain amount of authority to Paul. The circumcision of Timothy was a similar ruse on the part of Paul, a concession unnecessary in itself but valuable for not alienating Jewish believers and the Jewish community at large.
Now it is notable that this elaborate management of the situation involves no outright falsehood, either: nothing either Peter or Paul says is false, and the only thing that can remotely be called dissimulation is the fact that Peter accedes to the demands of the Jewish Christians not because he agrees with them but because he knows that it will give Paul an opportunity to make an important point. It's an elaborate teaching exercise. Some Fathers, most notably Augustine, were uncomfortable with the whole notion of the ruse, and Augustine and Jerome had one of their first fights over it, Jerome insisting that the ruse interpretation was the more pious and reasonable interpretation and Augustine insisting that it was more pious and reasonable just to say that Peter made a mistake and Paul corrected him. But however uncomfortable Augustine may have been with it, the ruse, should one choose to accept that interpretation, doesn't fall under any later definition of lying, or even Augustine's own definition of lying. The worry is not that Peter and Paul lied in any proper sense but that deception, even with good intention, is dangerous business for the soul, and the difference between the Fathers on this point is simply over whether it was too dangerous.
We find, then, much the situation with Chrysostom that we found with Cassian: we must avoid naive reading because the 'lying' involved in these cases doesn't map onto post-Augustinian accounts of lying in a straightforward way. To the extent that 'lies' are talked about at all in this context, the Fathers are usually using the term loosely, and even then they often show recognition of the complexities of this loose usage, as with Chrysostom's claim that his deception of Basil shouldn't even really be called a deception. There are still ambiguities about how far Chrysostom thinks one can go, but it's important to note that they are ambiguities: nothing Chrysostom says is outright inconsistent with the post-Augustinian tradition that lying is always wrong, and trying to make them inconsistent requires a considerable amount of eisegesis.
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